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the table, because i think labour has a lot of knowledge and expertise to oer.
my question is: how many labour spots are there on the present itos?
K. Evans: ere are seven. two itos have deter- mined that, and it's their decision to make. it's the ito governance.
 in 2009 the ita rescinded a policy that a majority of directors on the board of an ito must be employer representatives. So the itos now have autonomy to do so.
e resource training organization and the trans-
portation industry training organization have decided to have labour representation on their boards because they believe that that's reective of industry in their sec- tor. i think that answers your question.
K. Corrigan: it does, but maybe i'll just ask for just a bit of elaboration. Seven out of how many spots? and do all of the itos have labour representation on them?
K. Evans: no, two of the seven do, and two of the seven who do have chosen to because, as i mentioned, they feel that that's reective of their industry.
i can say this. i think that the seven representatives on the itos have managed to ease the concern of some that we would be getting back to stakeholder governance and back to the paralysis that we had during itac. ey've done that, to their credit, by taking o their stakeholder hat when they come to the table. Sure, they bring a labour perspective, but their duciary responsibility is to that organization, not labour or their particular union.
at message is being heard, and other itos are see-
ing the results of bringing labour to the table and how it enriches the outcome.
b. Ralston (Chair): Sorry. i was just engaging in some side conversation here. Pardon me. ere's an event of some political magnitude taking place outside this room today — not to detract from the important work we're doing.
R. Howard: i say this to try and again get some con- text in this. What we're dealing with is a very successful association, by many accounts leading the country in new and best practices. i really just have to say for the record that i have to take exception to some of the char- acterization of this — that it was no monitoring, no expectation, no thought, no guts and a hollow shell.
Well, that's obviously not true if we're dealing with something that is very successful. i think we all know that startups can be dicult and that transitions are dicult. When you have a startup and a transition hap- pening all at the same time, they're challenging times.
to chart a course through complicated structures and complicated relationships and vested interests is no mean feat. i think that where we are is a good place, and there are many, many good and positive stories.
to ask a question of Kevin: of the 12 issues that were identied by the auditor general, were all 12 of these issues just a total shock to you, or did you have some of the stu on your radar prior?
Evans: ey certainly were….
Ralston (Chair): i love that expression.
Evans: Shock or radar?
Ralston (Chair): on the radar. it's been used a lot
in the last year.
Evans: it was on my sonar.
Ralston (Chair): at's an elegant variation.
Evans: Yes, but i think that the auditor general's
oce, with its experience and its perspective as audit- ors, certainly enriched our understanding and gave us a greater sense of the dimension of some of the issues that we were looking at.
it was a little bit frustrating at times, but i have to say that the frustration was helped by malcolm's profession- alism and good humour. ey're going aer stu, and we're going: "We know. We know. We're working on it." and we're still working on it, but that, i guess, is about continuous improvement.
R. Howard: Yeah, i think that's my point, so thank you for that.
R. Sultan: What i found alarming, Kevin, was your observation that rst, we are probably going to have, by some reasonable forecasts, a gap, a shortage, of 140,000 trained people in a few years' time. i'm not quite sure of the time frame.
Evans: it's 2015, according to the conference Board.
Sultan: okay. Secondly, in the last downturn it took
ten years to recover the previous peak level of training activity.
 if we look in another area of advanced education
and i consider this, what you're doing, advanced edu-
cation — the universities don't see these huge cycles. So people are trained to be english majors or philosophers or engineers or whatever. Some of them nd employ- ment, and some of them don't, but they don't seem to suer these extremes of cyclicality.