W, n ,
i understand your expression of a general concern and your wish that we work on this. e deputy chair and i will have to consider whether that's something that's properly the work of this committee or not.
Perhaps Stuart has something to add as well.
S. Newton: Just a cautionary comment in relation to the investigative report. not all investigations result in a situation where a person has done something wrong, so merely the allegation is a problem. of the work that we do, you can discount 30 percent right away because w e ' v e d o n e a p r e l i m i n a r y a s s e s s m e n t , a n d t h e r e w a s n ' t lot of work needed to be done from there. a
e other part is that, let's say we do nd something, it
s t i l l h a s t o g o t h r o u g h a p r o p e r p r o c e s s . i f w e n d w e ' v got a problem, there's internal work that happens in relation to employee discipline, and that has to run its course. if it's related to something more criminal, and we're dealing with the police, then there's the police and the court system as well, where the individual is pre- sumed innocent until guilty. e
ese reports are completed long before some of the
other processes occur. if you've made requests for in- ternal audit reports, sometimes they're severed because they are currently with law enforcement.
e caution is that you may be getting information
that really isn't useful for the discussion. ere may be a better venue or way to have somebody come and present: "here are the key concerns." Something like that, i think, still needs to be discussed as far as what the terms of reference of this committee are and the ability to get that information.
Just on the reports themselves, that's a bit of a caution that i wanted to mention.
V. Huntington: i appreciate that clarication. are there trends? at any rate, i just leave that in your hands.
Gentner: to the auditor general. e auditor
general did not suggest that there was a needed cen- tralized approach to fraud management. on page 54: "a centralized approach to fraud management will ensure there is organized approach in place to manage…." and on and on it goes.
maybe i misunderstood the report. i can assure the auditor general that i'm not the voice of the minister of finance. i'm not really challenging you. i'd like to get some….
J. Doyle: You actually said "a recommendation," and there was no recommendation. at's what i responded to.
G. Gentner: okay. We'll call it a passive recommen- dation. Just so i got that one.
now, to mr. newton: how many employee sta mem- bers and contractors have been charged for fraud or dismissed? or how many contracts have not been re- newed because of…?
b. Ralston (Chair): did you want to put a time frame to that? i think that would be helpful.
G. Gentner: Well, i'm sure if they're doing monitor- ing, hon. chair, it would have a number here.
S. Newton: as far as the number of employees dis- missed due to fraud, that would be a question to ask the Public Service agency. as far as dealing with employee discipline and dismissals, there is a lot of labour rela- tions work that goes through there.
e work that we've done in internal audit basically
says: "here's the problem. here's what we've noted." and from there the ministry has to go through the pro- cess that they should be going through, which is dealing with their labour relations people in determining how to go forward.
in some cases we know, and in some cases we don't know. i couldn't give you a number that would be accur- ate. e Public Service agency would be the better place to be able to provide you that answer.
G. Gentner: no, i would imagine you'd want to know how prevalent, if it is a problem, and you'd have some re- lationship with the public service to determine whether or not it's a major issue.
how many purchase cards has the oce of the comp- troller cancelled or disposed of?
S. Newton: e oce of the comptroller general doesn't cancel or dispose of the purchase cards. it's a re- sponsibility of the ministry and their card coordinator, when they have issues in relation to purchase cards.
G. Gentner: So again, there's no coordination, centrally- wise. it's done by each ministry — correct?
S. Newton: Yeah. i took your point earlier. apart from the recommen- dation as far as — or non-recommendation…. i do believe, from my personal perspective, having worked in internal audit and dealing with some of this stu, that we do need a coordination of information related to this. i don't think it needs to be managed centrally, as far as there's one agency that deals with fraud, but the information needs to be coordinated centrally and shared.
to me, that would be very important, both for assess- ing risk in the work that internal audit does but also in assessing the policy work that may need to be done in